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srufolo1
srufolo1
4/10/2018 9:06:56 AM
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Platinum
Automation Means Job Cuts
Automation will definitely eliminate jobs as the article implied that was the idea all along. Where are these employees that lose jobs supposed to shift to? Maybe they can be trained to work in factories that produce robots. Wouldn't that be ironic.

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srufolo1
srufolo1
4/10/2018 9:04:34 AM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Automation Takes Over Jobs
@mhhf1ve I'm skeptical about basic income schemes. They certainly won't help raise people up from poverty. Maybe playing HQ Trivia with a chance to win lots of money twice a day is the answer to our dystopian future. I know I intend to find a smart friend today to win $300,000 at 3 p.m. today. Ha ha.

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mhhf1ve
mhhf1ve
4/9/2018 5:05:33 PM
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Platinum
Re: Automation Takes Over Jobs
Yes. We are agreed. There is some level of accomplishment that one should feel good about, and being self-sufficient is a goal that society should try to hold up. That said, there is also a need for a safety net to catch people when unfortunate events happen, and a basic income might be one way to address such an issue. Essentially, social security for people who aren't yet retired...? 

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Ariella
Ariella
4/9/2018 3:46:52 PM
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Author
Re: Automation Takes Over Jobs
@mhhf1ve Also I'm not talking about becoming a major success like the wonderkids in the tech world who managed to have the right idea at the right time for it to take off spectacularly. I'm merely talking about being able to earn an income that covers your living expenses. It all goes back to the pride a kid feels when she can tie her own shoes or prepare her own lunch. from https://kidshealth.org/en/parents/self-esteem.html

Self-esteem is the result of experiences that help a child feel capable, effective, and accepted. 
  • When kids learn to do things for themselves and feel proud of what they can do, they feel capable. 
  • Children feel effective when they see that good things come from efforts like trying hard, getting close to a goal, or making progress. 

Replace all that with a guaranteed income and no outlet for meaningful use of skills, then a person feel neither capable nor effective. 

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Ariella
Ariella
4/9/2018 3:25:16 PM
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Re: Automation Takes Over Jobs
@mhhf1ve Let me put it to you this way: it's the differnece between giving the man a fish and teaching him to fish. Sure, you can give him the fish so that he's not starving, and you should. But you also have to teach him to fish for himself. If you fail to do the equivalent of that, you're keeping him in depedent mode. Then you can feel the gratification of the person who bestows the fish on the poor man, and he is ever after in the position of the one who needs to ask for help. Now some parents seem to get addicted to feeling needed and so they never want their children to be truly independent. I don't consider that a healthy situation for either side, and this psychology article concurs. 

I remember a young mother once commenting on her toddler son's having learned to walk and so "he doesn't need me any more." Of course, that's absurd, but some people like to have complete dependence because feeling needed is very gratifying. But when bringing up children, the goal should not be to keep in the nest where you feed them ever after but have them grow strong enough to fly off on their own. That's the fulfilling life of a grownup. Will bumps occur along the way? Likely yes, but resilient people will view asking for help as a temporary solution -- not a long term life plan. 

 

 

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mhhf1ve
mhhf1ve
4/9/2018 1:41:33 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Automation Takes Over Jobs
The "pride of a full grownup" is an interesting concept. I'm not so sure who really gets to claim that award. Everyone needs help, sometimes serious help, from time to time -- unless you're really really lucky or somehow incredibly talented. And even then, incredibly talented people need help. Do you only get to claim your "adulting badge" if you pulled yourself up by your own bootstraps? 

There was a recent simulation that demonstrated that luck might be a greater factor than talent in achieving some success.... 

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610395/if-youre-so-smart-why-arent-you-rich-turns-out-its-just-chance/

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Ariella
Ariella
4/9/2018 1:33:45 PM
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Re: Automation Takes Over Jobs
@mhhf1ve Also people derive a great deal of their identity from the work they do. Sitting idle while a robot does all your work for you does not lead to a fulfilling life. We don't just live for pleasure but for self-actualization and meaning. So unless the people freed of work find some course of study or volunteer outlets that will add meaning to their lives and allow them to use their abilities for good, they are likely to grow bored and depressed, possibly even to start experimenting with illegal substances or dangerous behavior just to break up the tedium of their lives. 

As for the the other side of just getting by on the dole, I just saw this quote 
Thomas Sowell: "Welfare can give you money but it cannot give you job experience that will move you ahead economically." The same holds for the "basic income" idea. It's not a long term solution by any measure.


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Ariella
Ariella
4/9/2018 1:28:59 PM
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Author
Re: Automation Takes Over Jobs
@mhhf1ve I admit to not know anyone with a trust fund personally. But my impression is that they would be living off way more than a $12K a year, probably more like $120K a year. What I do know are people who have their parents buy their houses for them free and clear and then buy their furniture for them and their carpeting, etc, you get the picture. And these people still manage to not save money from their jobs and claim not to have enough to even fix their cars unless their parents shell out yet more money for them. That's the problem of the "someone else is taking care of me" mindset; you never have to make it on your own, so you don't. And you also never have the pride of a full grownup -- even into middle age.

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mhhf1ve
mhhf1ve
4/9/2018 1:08:20 PM
User Rank
Platinum
Re: Automation Takes Over Jobs
Definitely basic income schemes are not for everyone... But I think it might be useful for at least *some* people? I wonder if there are any studies of "trust fund kids" who are already living a basic income lifestyle of sorts? Conceivably, there could be some kind of trust that funded the lives of a population of people indefiintely -- and perhaps that might be even more practical with advanced AI where the AI does all the "work" to earn money (day trading or tirelessly manufacturing) and people live off the fruit of a robot's labor.... 

Obviously, there are drawbacks to an entire society built on some kind of basic income scheme (ahem, see Communism), but pure Capitalism has its faults, too. Perhaps we need some hybrid system of capitalism and a widespread lottery system for a basic income. Okay, that sounds like a dystopian short story of the future, but... the robots *are* coming, after all. 

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Ariella
Ariella
4/9/2018 11:30:51 AM
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Author
Re: Automation Takes Over Jobs
@mhhf1ve I'm not a fan of basic income schemes. First of all, the amounts proposed are about $1K a month, which would not even cover housing costs in the NYC area, never mind other life necessities. Secondly, from a psychological perspective, I think it pushes people into a mindset that saps the feeling of accomplishment one gets from earning one's way. Thirdly, there is no way that approach is economically feasible beyond the very short term in very limited circumstances. 

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